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I've been trying to maintain a very swiss stance on this (figured I'd use what could arguably be labeled as my "catch phrase") - agressively neutral, but I find I can no longer avoid commenting, and instead find myself picking up Pippa's standard. What I say here I mean not as lecture, but as balanced thoughts on the issue at hand.

That this thread has gotten to the point that two of the most talented photographers on the site are threatening complete pull-outs disturbs me greatly. I've had a very steep learning curve in these past 2 months, and I owe much of it to both of you, Sheila and Joe. Your absence would be a major loss from the site. Allow me to specifically ask you both to stay. Perhaps if would be best if you both once again maintain a respectful distance and appreciation of each other, much the way my cat and I do for each other (he was a stray; he has issues with guys). I used to spend significant time on "discussion" forums for different topics; if I've learned one thing on the internet, it's that you must remember that emotions are rarely maintained in a post, and it's best to assume most statements are made in the most positive, least vindictive light.

With that in mind, DaronM - I fail to see how your statement was intended to further the discussion. Please take the opportunity to enlighten the rest of us.

I am here at Byte because I can get here what you generally can't get on other photo sites - constructive and helpful critiques beyond just "nice shot." There are other reasons as well, and Byte is the best mix of everything I was looking for when I found it. A loss of your (plural) talents from the site would hurt that.

The topic in the OP needs to be addressed, but at this point, I feel that would be better done at a later date in a different thread or by an evenhanded, all-encompassing rule/clarification by the administration.

Respectfully,
steve

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Steve,

Very even handed post and I appreciate that.

I am not threatening to leave Steve - I am leaving.

You know how Einstein defined insanity - you keep on doing the same thing expecting different results. I've been doing that and now I'm done.

Most people will go on happily posting "great shot, good job, etc" and other in depth remarks that teach no one anything. There is very little candor in comments here anymore.

You are a good man, Steve. Thank you for posting this.

Sheila.

Last edited by northbeach on Oct 23rd, 2007 at 01:43 AM

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Steve, I also appreciate your post.....I .... for one do not want to leave Byte!! I have learned more from the folks at byte than I have learned in countless (maybe hundreds) of books, PJ classes at the local collage, and my camera club that consist of 40+ pros.
I have been excited to post my weeks work every Monday....and that pushed me to go out and post the best shots that I could.....I didn't even shoot this weekend.....and that never happens!!
I.....for one have no problem co-existing!

I have the upmost respect for the members of this site....and you are a prime example of the "norm" here!

Thanks for mediating!

Cheers, Joe

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www.JMdigitalphotography.com

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Well said Joe!!! This site has and continues to be a learning site for me as well.

Hang in there, 'cause we need you!

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Ellen

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Hi Joe,
stick around awhile

Last edited by shaggydoo on Oct 23rd, 2007 at 04:07 AM

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No Worries Joe. A wonderful contributor to a excellent site.

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i'm sorry to say this.... but i urge the poeple who posted here after Steve to please read and re-read what he had to say… again - and again if only for it to sink in.

His points have been missed…
After Sheila responded this thread has been deliberately hijacked.
I do not approve of dealing from the bottom of deck and I will stand up and say so.

This thread is not a JOE popularity contest and each of the comments following Steve’s post have turned it into one.

To be so deliberately unkind to Sheila galls me - how do you find it so easy to be cruel? I’m interested in the workings of my fellow man and it is WORKING here in pack mentality .

There is a clique here that has a stranglehold which I am finding most unpleasant.

Sheila said she had brought this very thread up some while ago, well, here’s the link. http://www.bytephoto.com/forums/t5363.html

That time it was received in a mature atmosphere and discussion took place.
She chose to bring it up again and happended to mention Joe because it was pertinent to him. Then a bomb goes off -staggering, the fall out......
This time it has been received with hysteria from one particular member who bangs on about his fan club and all the support he has - BAAAAAAH


i am truly disappointed by a mentality that has been (not just here on this thread) but on the site generally since Sheila first posted and even more so when I took up the thread when I spotted it a few days later.

Steve felt forced to contribute, and thankfully he did.
Since then it is not even handed , it is unfair and CRUEL.

disappointedly
pippa

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Pippa,
you've questioned the ethics of changing shots during the contest,fair enough. However,when you consider ethics as a whole I don't believe it's a huge deal. Moreover,if I recall correctly,Joe was merely seeking input from us because he wanted to enter an animal shot into a contest at his local photoclub. If the critque section at Byte was not as dead as a Dodo, I'm sure he would have entered his shots there instead. The way I see things is that this could have been solved discreetly via a simple PM
Andrew

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thank you Adrew
maybe the ethics as a whole is not a big deal to some , which is certainly fair enough - but it would be good to guage everyones feelings about it - and that is why open debate can often be incredibly useful - why can't we do that on this site? why did it have to turn into a bloodfest? why can no one here start a thread for healthy discussion without the boycotting kicking in - as Steve says, its now too emotive.

I like your optimism that a pm would have resolved the issue - but from where i stand i just dont see it..... anything that smacks of the remotest hint of criticism... even where the photography is concerned, sets this person off, either reaction mode or denial..(except of course by the clique) - its a pity OPEN healthy debate did not happen as i for one, besides Sheila, am also interested in seeing what EVERYONE thinks about changing shots mid stream.

if critique section is dead as a dodo - lets revitalise it - we could post a reminder in a thread where we can all see it. each time someone wants their images critiqued shout it and we will spot it. Do you think that is a possibility?

pippa

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I probably shouldn't add to this acrimonius thread but I find myself unable to resist pointing out that there are no angels in this fracas nor are there any devils. I'm a huge supporter of Sheila and if she truly leaves it will be a detriment to the quality of this site. That being said I've never been in agreement with her apparantly rigid stance on how the contest gallery should be viewed. We each submit and contribute for our own reasons and trying to force others to one's viewpoint in this instance is akin to herding cats and just as pointless. I feel that Sheila should have thought twice before singling Joe out considering thier somewhat stormy history.

I'm also a fan of the exuberance that Joe brings to the table but he reacted with instant and rather dramatic anger to Sheila's first post and I think only read the parts that he wanted rather than viewing the intent. He thought the post was intended to belittle him and that really isn't the case from my viewpoint. While I think it was ill advised to single him out I think the point of the post was how the contest is managed/used.

Pippa, you're response it was triggered my post. I think it's important to remember that each one of us has our strengths and our weaknesses and that none of us are blameless in our dealings with one another. To blast the members that have urged Joe to stay seems just as one-sided as you accuse them of being.

I hope both Joe and Sheila will find a way to coexist here because thier contributions help make this site fun and informative but lets remember that all of us are human and none of us are angels or demons.

Darren

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Mr PIppa,

I have only one question to ask you??

Regardless of who the aggressor between me and Mrs. Sheila has been in the past????

Do you honestly feel that I would not take her public humitiation personally????? We already know that there are issues between us (me and sheila).....that is why I have tried to "walk on pins a needles" to not wake up the raging issue.

And for her to turn around in a public forum and do this??

I quote her!
"Correct me if I'm wrong Joe but you are asking for comparative opinions. You seem to be to be fishing not entering a contest."

Yes....I think most would not appreciate being repumanded by a fellow member in a public forum...

That in my mind is being cruel.

I remain, Joe

__________________
www.JMdigitalphotography.com

Last edited by JoeMc on Oct 23rd, 2007 at 04:53 PM

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Joe - i sincerely believe Sheila was not trying to “publicly humiliate” you (i too, all by myself, felt the comp was getting out of hand) she raised the issue because you prompted something that had been brought up before.

She did say “correct me if I am wrong Joe“ and there was your golden opportunity to correct her views in an adult way.. She was not grand standing you … she was being candid and openging up debate, in her forthright manner.

I fear you take things far too personally Joe and tend to railroad discussion.

pippa

Last edited by pippafox on Oct 23rd, 2007 at 03:29 PM

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I also must kick in here and say, that it is one thing to start something like this in the lounge. But to bring it out to the contest page with "Joe I Know your ticked at me but" Is just wrong!! and a true attack on Joe in my mind because she couldn't leave it in the lounge Or Pm him with her concerns. Perhaps if adult thinking had prevailed A PM would have resolved the issue all togeather. I seem to remember not so long back a male person doing the same thing to Sheila It caused tention all week eventually the they both acted like children and couldn't contain driving each other nuts as well as the rest of us. So this isn't the first time nor do i think it's the last. Pippa I have watched this thread sense it started And understand fully. I think that Admin, and the community can help clairify this as well. But done in a proper fashion in a seperate thread without all the confusion. I think that Joe contributes not only his work artfully But comments across the intire board. Sheila also contributes her peices but with less comments across the board. This dosen't in any way make either member any less valuable It's just an observation. We are all guilty of not commenting on at least one of everyones photos. There is no cop out for it, We should all attempt each week. This isn't a popularity contest it's a photography contest.The rules state some photographers may be hard on your work while others will be less so if some members want to start with good Photo well Done Ect. thats there right it's up to the indivdual to critique in there own way. And up to each artist to come here, read those comments objectively without bias.
One of the things that make this site so great is we are left to make choices. Crying fowl at every turn or twist isn't doing any of us good and causes stress in a otherwise pleasant invironment, with very good people I like both Joe and Sheila. As well as everyone i have come across on the board we all have something to contribute here so lets Face the trials with smiles, put our best foot forward, be good will ambassadors for this wonderful sight, work as a team to give this machine a chance to Run smoothly.
Travis

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Thanks to everyone for your patience thru this "trainwreck" of a thread.

I am going to sit in the penalty box for the remainder of the week and start posting fresh Sunday night/ Monday morning.

I am personally inviting Sheila to post whenever she feels up to it.
I think its OK, to agree to disagree and move forward. I think if we respect each others space, there is no reason why we can not both make a positive contribution to Byte.

Peace,
Joe McBroom

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Last edited by JoeMc on Oct 24th, 2007 at 03:44 AM

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I have been reading and digesting all the comments made on the thread. It saddens me to hear these ill feelings being expressed.

I have been part of this community for awhile now and have enjoyed the opportunity we have to share our art. I joined because this was a outlet that people could learn from the critiques given o them as well as learn by critiquing others. Both are valuable way to improve on our work.

I respect both Sheila and Joe as photographers and as friends. They bring expertise and experience to the site that is appreciated by me, and the so many others. I do not want to lose either.

I am not taking sides, which may be gutless but, it would be pointless and not proactive.

I do post on a couple of other sites. But neither are as informative or interactive as this one. I appreciate the fact that our contest section is not as overpopulated, because it is very difficult to comment on every photo.

I for one would like to see more critiques and less stroking when it comes to commenting. Although both can be done. there is always something good about an image and it should be recognized but there are also opinions of how an image can be improved and they should be voiced as well.

Without opening another can of worms, i would like to see more detail in the comments good or bad. I do not learn from a simple "good shot" statement.

For what it is worth, I hope this can all be put behind us and get back to honing our craft.

As always, cheers,

kevin

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