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I have something to add. As receivers of negative feedback, we have a responsibility also. Read it twice...think about it...digest it before you react. Sam has taught me that. He'll say, "Sit back and think about what he/she is saying" I'm trying to learn to do that. As Carolyn said...we all have fragile egos.

Noone has been hurtful to me this week. I have received a great deal of constructive criticism that has been helpful.

I guess what I'm trying to say is be careful what you say on the giving or on the receiving end. There is a wealth of information on this site. Let's be careful about how we deliver and receive it. Be constructive and not destructive.


Cindy

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Never, never, never quit. -W. Churchill

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Very well put Cindy!

One problem I've seen through the years, is a great many times, comments are taken wrong. Some people have the gift of flowery prose. Others (like me) tend to be abrupt. Not intending to be rude, just matter of fact style of getting out thoughts.

Also, those that join us in using the English language, are not always using it as a "first" language. Lots of little works get left out, leaving the overall impression of maybe not quite so polite.... I think it's very very important to take that into consideration also.

And the bottom line is:

Are we here to make friends and have all those friends stroke our egos

or

learn and make friends along the way....

and I suppose that leads to what kind of friend would you rather have.... one that takes the time and has the courage to help you along, or one that just always tells you how great you are?

I think Sam's advice to Cindy is priceless.

Carolyn

"Do one thing every day that scares you"
Eleanor Roosevelt

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English actually is my first language...but English English And that in and of itself is different in delivery than American English.

I believe one of the things we need to remember is how the tone of voice is lost in a written message. Some of us may have had email correspondence that was utterley misunderstood because the tonal nuances of vocal delivery were missing. The signals that body English give were not there to read and a smile that often softens language was not there to be seen.

When I first began posting here I used to sometimes take things amiss, whereas if I'd been standing next to the person I woudn't even have given it a second thought.

I'm taking a time out from Byte. It's not a place I feel welcome anymore.


Sheila.

Last edited by northbeach on May 7th, 2007 at 01:44 AM

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Shiela, you've been here longer than I have. You've been a stauch participator on this site... pulling everyone together forever. Please don't go. Maybe take a "break" as some of us feel the need to do... for whatever reasons.... time constraints, tired of it all or whatever... but don't pull up roots and leave.

I've always found your comments helpful. I don't always agree.... but if I did, you'd be the wizard... and NONE of us are. We have our opinions.

This is a prime example of where I did not want this thread to go. People offering comments/suggestions/critiques, and others taking offense at the presentation or the suggestion.

Come on people. See the light, then go out and shoot it!!!

And Sheila.... if you go, please come back!!!!!

Carolyn

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Sheila,

If my comments have in any way contributed to you feeling unwelcome here I am truly sorry. I feel that you are a valuable asset to this community and your absence would lessen us greatly. I may have taken issue with several of your comments but that doesn't mean that I don't appreciate what you bring to this site. Please accept my apologies for anything I've posted if those words made you feel unwelcome.

Carolyn,

If I am one that led this thread down an unwanted path I can assure you that it wasn't an intentional misdirection. I saw what I felt was a bias towards newbies posting photos and attempting to contribute so I spoke out. I tried to make it clear that I valued those experienced eyes even if I didn't share thier viewpoint. Believe me, I'm truly bummed because I think I'm directly responsible for making Sheila uncomfortable.

Darren

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Darren,

Absolutely no worries. You did no such thing.

Keep on posting all, and trying hard.

Carolyn

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I have followed with interest the thread of this conversation, and it has been a topic of much discussion in our house. Here are my thoughts (as rambling as they are):

When I joined this site 1 ½ years ago, my photos weren’t near as good as I thought they were. The critiques that I received proved to me that I had a lot to learn about taking photographs. My ego was bruised; I often disagreed with the critiques, and got mad at least once per post. But as I continue to post, I noticed a funny thing. As I was taking the subsequent photos, I was thinking about the critiques I had received the week before, and actually using the “critiques” as lessons! Imagine that! Even though I was mad at the comment, I was using it to improve my photography skills! It wasn’t very long before I stopped getting mad and started to sit back, read the comment, and really try to see what the critic was trying to tell me. I also realized that the critics were also pretty darn good photographers, in most instances, much better than I ever dreamed to be. Some communicated better than others, but if I read the comments objectively, everyone was trying to help. I t wasn’t long before I was shooting photos using the lessons I learned, and trying to earn praise from the same folks that ticked me off when I first joined! I’m proud to say now that I have made the final 6 many times, and have won POTW a time or two. I am also proud to say that while I am still honing my skills, they are much better now than I ever thought they would be.

I think that this is a great site. The site is structured such that the contest, even though it is a competition, is a great forum for people to share ideas and learn. I do remember that even though I greatly respect the critics of my photos, their words are still their opinions. I submit photos to contests in other sites. Some that don’t do well here, have made the finalists other places, others that do well here, don’t at other sites. Also, remember that having someone critique a post is OPTIONAL.

A final note. EVERYONE should feel welcome here. The members, old and new, are the strength of this site. In everyday life, there are some folks that just don’t get along, for whatever reason. It is a fact of life, and this site will never be an exception to that rule. For this site to grow and prosper, we as members have a responsibility to try to be diplomatic in our comments and views, and try to be a tiny exception to the rule.

Sam

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It is never to late to be what you might have been. -George Eliot

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sheila gives valuable feedback and i hope any break will be short lived. this site will be all the poorer without her contribution and i am sorry for what has gone on here.
different backgrounds; cultures, mentalities, personalities, outlook, experiences, behaviour etc. - we should try to be tollerant of each other.
pippa

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Sam,

Thanks for your comments. You actually said what I was feeling but in a more articulate way.

Sheila, I would hate to see you take a leave. I have always appreciated your critiques. You have always been one who pushes me to improve. As well as the others at Byte.

This has been one of the better dialogs posted in the forum and I hope everyone will use it as a guideline for the future. We need to all take a breath and take all this in on a positive note.

Thanks Carolyn for having the guts ringing this to everyone's attention.

Cheers Kevin

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Hi evryone,

I too have been following this thread for a while now.
I joined this site with a view to improving my skills but also to share ideas/techniques... with better photographers than me. I also wanted to travel through all the shots taken all around the world.
I 've since been overwhelmed with all the help and advice that all photographers of any level have given me and other fellow photographers.
Before entering the photo contest for the 1st time (and it's still true now) I knew i would receive bad (and hopefully also some good ones!) feedbacks or comments...strangely enough, those were the ones I was most looking forward to as it's thanks to and through contructive criticism that one can eventually improve. I try to keep that in mind all the time.
Receiving good feedbacks is really pleasing (and in a way reassuring) and everyone will agree on that; and as long as someone's feedback is aimed at helping out another photographer as far as composition/dof (...)is concerned, we can learn from it.
I clearly remember Sam (Sambo) going back to a place he'd taken a shot of and following the advice he'd been given, he shot it again,which resulted in a better photo indeed...This is one of many examples of how we can all benefit from the feedback of others.
I've seen so many photographers on this site get better and better over the weeks(years)...and I say with no hesitations whatsoever that it's thanks to those good/bad critics that I've acquired a much better understanding of what photography is all about.

PS Sam, don't be so humble, you've won POTW a lot more than 1 or 2 times You're one of the best photographers on this site!!!

__________________
MIKE
http://www.smikephotography.com

Last edited by kaelmike on May 8th, 2007 at 05:27 AM

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There is nothing that I can say that has not already been stated. Everyone is welcome at this site and everyone has an opinion that should be taken as just that an opinion! The only thing that I would like to add is that constuctive critisism should, and always be treated with "kid Gloves" and be the intent of helping the photographer improve.
Sincerely, Joe

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There have been several very good posts on this thread. That is great. After commenting at the thread last week, I started trying even harder on my comments in the contest. I have always been one of the tougher folks at giving feedback, and I hope that the comments are helpful as well as lead folks to see my work and give me feedback.

What I noticed during my critiquing last week is that it is fairly easy at this stage of my photography to give commentary on possible changes. However, upon focusing on Carolyn's suggestions, what i found ironic was my weakness at describing in specifics what I like about a photo. This is just as important as pointing out flaws as it gives the artist a direction.

Critique my shots - please; however, also try and give me that specific feedback on what you like (if anything ) as this gives me important insight from the viewer perspective.


To all, this has been healthy. Thanks for contributing to this thread.

__________________
Buddy

There are always two people in every picture: the photographer and the viewer. - Ansel Adams

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Good post Carolyn and thanks for including me in those you've missed. I've been up to my eyeballs at work - and on vacation - and on a business trip so unfortunately my time at Byte lately has been at an absolute minimum. However, when I popped in tonight and read this chain, I agreed with the feelings behind it.

When I joined just nearly three years ago, I was definitely an amateur photographer with a reasonable eye for composition and few real technical skills - just a 'practice gets me closer' photographer. Digital opened a whole new realm for me as I was able to learn from my mistakes without having to wait for the film to be developed. I read my EXIF info carefully and adjusted what I needed to adjust. I also had wonderful feedback from several people on this site. Sure I got hammered occasionally, but it really opened my eyes to differing - and very valid perspectives and boy did I learn. I graduated from just above point & shoot to DSLR and building my own website and selling my photos.

Most has been said about the reason this site exists and where some of our challenges lay. I'd like to focus on the feedback portion and give some suggestions to our newbies.

I started off slowly myself - commenting on things I felt comfortable with - like a crop or colour or a different perspective. Using the proverbial '80/20' (customer service/training) rule as a guideline, I'd generally try to find the 80% good in a photo and then make suggestions to improve the 20% that, in my opinion, didn't make it the awesome shot it could have been. As I learned off people at this site, and learned from my own 'playing', I was soon able to give more technical suggestions like changing depth of field, a white balance or speed setting. If a photo just doesn't make it (and I know it's a contest, but it's also a learning tool), then a 'this could be a great image if you tried this...' does wonders to help a person feel that there are positives even if it's not the cream of the crop.

If you find a photo you are having challenges with, on a piece of paper write down what you like and then what you don't - and then suggestions of what would make it better in your opinion. Then put it into your comment. You'll find that you won't need the practice later - it will come naturally.

Being critical is easy, and offering criticism easier still. It's easy to pick the 'wrongs' and neglect the rights, but constructive criticism is an art. People can quickly take the wrong context out of a message, particularly in our electronic age, yet there are times when offering constructively critical feedback is essential to maintaining excellence and strong relationships. And that is what feedback at this site is about - building friendships, and helping all of us strive to be the best we can be.

So good luck to all of you, and here's to being 'first, best & different' as a course instructor recently ingrained into my head!

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Suzan...
www.photoswithfinesse.com

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If I said anything to make old members feel unwelcome, I am truly sorry. The majority of the feedback I get on this site is helpful and it helps me learn. I miss you guys! Not only do I learn from your feedback, but I learn from your photographs and how you critique the photographs of others.

Someone please tell me that the photograph I submitted this week of Bella is too soft. I know that it is and I want to hear it. )

Carolyn, Sheila, Buddy, Kevin and whoever I left out...please come back!


Cindy

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Never, never, never quit. -W. Churchill

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Cindy,try not to panic - it's only Tuesday:-)

Since say you know it's too soft then the kind of feedback I hope you get is why softness doesn't work in this instance... if indeed it doesn't. But it will for some people then you follow your bliss :-)

Sheila.

Last edited by northbeach on May 8th, 2007 at 05:03 PM

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