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I've got several thoughts on the subjects being discussed here but first I'd like to thank all of you for your contributions to this site. I'm not a long time member but I've grown quite fond of this site and that's a tribute to all of you.

I can understand the dissatisfaction when you see what you percieve to be a watering down of product as well as a dimuntion in the quality of feedback. My surmise is that this is due to an influx of new blood (self included). I would encourage those that are contemplating pulling back to continue to fight the good fight. Use newbies will never improve if our most accomplished and critical eyes withdraw.

I would also like to suggest that ascribing motive to posters is not only counter productive it's quite often not on the mark. I've posted images that I suspected wouldn't win but they were representative of my work and I wanted to not only share but also benefit from those that could help me improve my work. Am I to understand that you should only enter the contest to win? I'd like to believe that the idea is to improve and really that along with my love of sharing is why I enter.

I also think it's important that one provide feedback if one desires it. If I'm guilty of being one of the blind leading the blind I apologize, but I AM learning and I think everyone should be given the leeway to learn by their mistakes.

I personally would love to see more dialogue about the shots. Not just a critique and a thanks but some real back and forth. I'd also love to see the forum become more active.

This didn't end up being as organized or articulate as I'd hoped but hopefully I've managed to convey the thought that I'd hate to see any of you withdraw. Keep helping those of us that are less accomplished and don't assume that we ony wish to have our egos stroked.

I am always very appreciative of those that take the time out of their day to view my shots and I value their input regardless of whether it makes me proud or strive to do better.

Darren

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Hello Joe, and thanks for reading/commenting here.

First let me say that I don't think anywhere did I infer that one needs to be a "pro" to particiapate. This website in my mind is geared to all. And everyones take on photos is welcome.

My biggest complaint is that most ever comment is nothing but positive. Positive is good, but when there is room for improvement (as there almost always is) ideas/suggestions should be welcomed.

And many times they are just that: ideas and suggestions. Unless the flaws are technical... that can be overcome by correct use of camera/pp, then the comments become more pointed, rather than just artistic suggestions.

The number rating system has failed in the past, due to people not wanting to hurt others feelings, people not understanding that 5 (on 1-10) is average, people using the numbers for "retribution"..... I used to value and use the rating system until about a year and a half ago. To me, it began falling short then. Personalities got in the way.

Thanks again for your thoughts here.

Carolyn

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Darren,

Thanks for your post.

I'm not quite clear what you mean by "ascribing motive to posters is not only counter productive it's quite often not on the mark. I've posted images that I suspected wouldn't win but they were representative of my work and I wanted to not only share but also benefit from those that could help me improve my work. Am I to understand that you should only enter the contest to win? I'd like to believe that the idea is to improve and really that along with my love of sharing is why I enter." I did not mean to say that the contest area is only for those that want to enter a contest to try to win. Initially that (I believe) was the intention of the site admin, and the other areas were more for comments.... but as I mentioned in my first post... we don't have time (many of us) to use the entire site.... and therefore we (myself included) tend to use the contest area. Not a thing wrong with that in my mind.

That said, I'm just trying to get all of us to maybe point out what (in our mind) could be an improvement.... technical or artistic... then have the artist accept it as that.... and not get hurt feelings... (hard to do) or maybe get over it a bit easier.... just realizing that others are trying to help.

I'm so glad you appreciate help you've received here. It really is a great sounding board for ideas.

Carolyn

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Carolyn, I wasn't necessarily referring to any of your posts but I got the sense from some that they disapproved of folks for posting to the Contest area for feedback alone with no expectation of competing. That concerns me on several levels. Firstly, I think it's wrong to assume that you can know the intent of a posters submission unless they unequivocally state that the only reason they are submitting is for feedback. Secondly, it's quite possible that one becomes enamored of an image and is blind to it's technical shortcomings. Thirdly, if, as I suspect, folks have a myriad of reasons for selecting a specific photo for submission ie, pride (competition), sharing (community) and feedback (learning) we should not expect that we know precisely which reason is paramount to them.

It's possible that I misinterpreted some of the opinions offered and I realize that is a possibility. If so and if my subsequent remarks of off base I apologize. I do think that discussions such as this are beneficial as long as everyone remains civil. Perhaps they will result in a change that will improve everyone's enjoyment. I do hope though that we don't lose those that are disaffected by the present state of affairs. Keep fighting the good fight and help us all learn and grow.

Darren

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Darren and Carol,
After reading your post I have to admit that I have on most occasions entered the contest knowing that my work is sub-standard to a vast majority of the other entries...I entered them for several reasons....#1 it was the best I had to offer and #2 I wanted to learn from others that have more experience than I..... I have just rescently gotten serious about this...I joined a club, I am taking classes and I have read 7 thick photography books in last few month's..... and this is yet another tool for me to learn.....and teach as I learn.

I understand that many comments are only the personal preference of the person commenting... I can not say that I even agree with most weeks top six.....But maybe that is why I am here......to learn.

I hope I am treating this forum as it was designed....If not, then I guess I am using it as I see beneficial, for me and others!
Thank you for giving me an avenue to discuss this topic....It has been on my mind.
Joe

Last edited by JoeMc on May 1st, 2007 at 07:08 PM

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hear hear - well expressed joe!
pippa

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Thank you Pippa!
Sincerely, Joe

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sorry didn't notice that this continues onto a second page (last post in reply to Joe's on page 1). this thread has also been playing on my mind and i think Darren and Joe have expressed my feelings about this very well.
I've discovered a passion for photography and although i know my photographs are crap compared to the majority of posters here - my knowledge of the technical side is non existent - i still like and think i should be allowed to comment from a purely personal/artistic standpoint.
i too hope to improve as i go along without the aid of courses etc.
pippa

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Hi Pippa!

I think you maybe missed the part where I said, if you don't feel qualified to make a suggestion, just comment on what you like.

There are quite a few photogs here that are qualified... and the longer you stay, the sooner you will be too!!! But they (myself included) are the ones I'm directing this to. Don't duck out the door if you see something technically wrong.... give a suggestion. Or maybe not technically wrong, but just another artistic impression.... another way to look at things... That's the point I'm trying to make. I learned (am learning) so much from just reading others comments.... and that's what I think has fallen by the wayside to a certain extent....

Carolyn

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I just saw this thread and was happy to see this subject brought to a head. I too have enjoyed my time with Byte. Especially because I have learned so much by the critiques I have received , both good and bad.

I must admit that I have fallen into the praise trap. I echo the thoughts expressed about we have gotten away from serious critiques. I do try to give honest opinions to those that seem to be able to take the comments to heart and not be offended.

I also stopped using the points scoring because it became so ridiculous. There was no rhyme or reason to the scores. I much prefer the dissecting of my images to push me to improve my skills. Those of you who have not pulled any punches , I thank you.

While I am seeing more and more "snap shots" in the contest section and I am OK with that as long as they are willing to accept the comments they are asking for. We all have to start somewhere. Hopefully they will understand that we are critiquing from a neutral point of view, and it is our personal opinion.

I am going to return to the old ways and try to be more specific in my comments. i think that is important and how we all learn. The comments Carolyn & Sheila mentioned (crop, nice composition etc), I agree need more detail. We should explain why is it a good comp or how could it be improved. And so on. Give examples.

I have received more Pm's from members about techniques and the like. And even if someone wants more specific info on my comments. I like that.

Enough said.

Thanks to everyone who has challenged me by their comments. You all know who you are. Keep it up

Kevin

Last edited by khedquist on May 3rd, 2007 at 04:16 PM

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quote:

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Originally posted by shootem

I think you maybe missed the part where I said, if you don't feel qualified to make a suggestion, just comment on what you like.

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I can be pretty long winded, and ramble. So I want to clearly restate:

When I started, I didn't have a clue.

I've learned tons here.

I feel this site is for ALL levels of ability... mostly about desire I guess.

I feel we've gotten away from honest critique (although I see lots this week!!!!)

The ability to critique comes from experience, that can and will be gained here.

The less experience you have, the more you can learn from reading others critiques.... always taking them with a grain of salt, and looking into the picture. Until you feel comfortable offering suggestions to improvement, just write what you like, or don't like about it.

But..... those that have the knowledge, instead of "critiquing" as a stroke to be stroked in return, if you see ways that IN YOUR OPINION could improve .... say it. Doesn't mean it has to be taken verbatim.... It's all opinions lent to learn, and should be given/taken as such.....

Thanks to all for making a concerted effort...I think it breathes life into this site.

Carolyn

"It is horrifying that we have to fight our own government to save the environment". Ansel Adams

Last edited by shootem on May 3rd, 2007 at 06:37 PM

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Carolyn,
Thank you for posting this discussion. I have learned a lot from reading this thread and have tried to give more honest, helpful feedback this week. I am not real experienced so I do not always see what others see but I always try to be honest and encouraging. I think something should be said here about how feedback is delivered, particularly negative feedback. I do not think there is any place in this contest for feedback that is hurtful, or that that may be interpreted as hurtful or condescending. Negative feedback can be delivered in such a way that it is helpful and not hurtful. That is how I feel that I learn best and have learned the most on this site. I will continue to give honest, helpful feedback and hope that others will do the same. Thank you again for posting this discussion.


Cindy

__________________
Never, never, never quit. -W. Churchill

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Amen Cindy....very well stated!
Joe

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I to have tried to leave better critiques but it seems as though i like it was much better I do not think that i have been hurtful this week or any other But i have received no response from any of the photos i have commented on. Danged if i do Danged if i dont. So If any of you have been offended than i apologize. Truely trying to find a happy medium and dont want any hurt feelings.

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