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I want to say up front how much I have learned from the constructive critisizm I've received from members here. It has not always been easy to take, especially when I'd post an image that I felt was "perfect". And then several members would show me where it fell short.... Of course the more I posted, the more I read others critiques, the more I learned, and could start to see flaws in my own work easier.

Those days seem to have drifted by with time...many of the members that contributed to so much of my learning have for whatever reason stopped participating. Chronos, Matt, Suzan, Leo, Graham (plus others I'm forgetting.... so sorry...), all would be the first to say what they liked.... and more importantly what they felt could be improved. That's how we learned. We all pushed each other.

For many reasons, I have not had the time to participate of late..... but it discourages me when I stop by, to see soooooo many comments that are nothing more than.... This is great. I love it. What about it's out of focus, or you've lost all detail in .... or your comosition could maybe have been improved by, or your exposure......

About the only suggestions I see are those of crops. Well..... that's good.... it's a start..... but I really felt the worth of this site was in the learning. Not the patting of each other on the back. Sure it was wonderful to make the top 6, and even sometimes "win" POTW.... but the real value was in the learning.

It appears to me that many participants want to stroke to be stroked. Am I the only one here that misses the aspect of actually getting suggestions from this group???? Of learning by reading others critiques??? Of not being afraid to say what we really think about an image, 'cause everyone else says how much they like it???????

In reality, there are mostly average at best snapshots in a given week. A few standouts. But that's expected. We can't possibly be expected to turn out "great" work week after week after week.... even the Ansel Adams, and Paul Strands of the world didn't do that. Not even close. So why does everyone say how "great" they are???????????

OK.... rant over. Just had to get it out. Now everyone can make a choice. Start being honestly helpful in your critiques, or carry on as usual. If you are not qualified..... then learn from what others say.

Carolyn

www.carolynguildphotography.com

Last edited by shootem on Apr 28th, 2007 at 06:00 AM

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Carolyn,
I enjoyed reading your note. I have also learned a lot from feedback on this site.

For whatever reason, I have lived in a "tough feedback" world, so, though I wanted some praise, I don't mind and appreciate constructive criticism. However, during the last year, some folks were offended by feedback. I think this led to many no longer giving scores and many holding back frank comments. I would like to get back to having more detailed comments.

Another "change" is that we do have quite a few fairly new members, so the culture is evolving. I am happy to see that many of the new members have PM'ed me to ask for more detailed feedback. Hopefully this type of activity will lead to more folks openly giving feedback on the weekly contest.

I have to admit that I have been a bit reluctant to comment on weaker images in fear of offending the artist. That said, as you have so eloquently pointed out, improvement comes from feedback. I will try to start giving more constructive comments in the coming weeks... and I also look forward to your comments

Thanks for taking the time to express some really important thoughts.

__________________
Buddy

There are always two people in every picture: the photographer and the viewer. - Ansel Adams

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I couldn't agree more, Carolyn.

There are positively bad images posted that get "ahs" for how cute the subject is, how everyone likes the color blue, etc., but no one says what's wrong with the image.

I've had camera limitation excuses offered for soft focus and noise and been taken to task as if I had some nerve pointing it out. The poster of those images knew they were not up to snuff for a contest but posted them anyway... for the feedback alone.

That, I think the real problem. The "contest" is longer a real contest. A place where people post what they believe to be good work with the bugs smoothed out and ready to compete. These people appreciate and get feedback from knowledgeable people but that is not the prime reason they post. They want to compete and to share their work.

Ironically, because more inexperienced people now post primarily for feedback it's now these these same inexperienced folks who are offering critiques! The blind leading the blind.. and so feedback often doesn't go much beyond the three "c's" ~ cropping, clarity and color - all of which are used like "buzz" words. It's self-defeating.

Admin has a part in this too - there are images making the final six that are not of a high standard and when the bar is set low...well. Personally I think the philosophy of the whole site needs revisiting, so that there's a genuine place for people to get good feedback and learn and a genuine contest.

Meanwhile the folks who post to the actual critique forum get barely any feedback to often very good work.

I didn't post at all last week - and almost didn't this week. I visit the site less and less and comment less and less. I have a sentimental attachment to this place and to some people here but I see myself moving on.

Sheila.

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Buddy and Sheila, thanks for your replies.

I see 2 main problems.

1) For us to use this site as it is intended... we would enter our "best" shots in the contest area, and others that we want more help on in the Photo Sharing area. The problem is, I for one, and probably most people here... simply don't have the time to respond to both areas. So we mostly respond to the contest area. (At least that's my case).

2) Ego. Our egos a fragile. I know many times in years past I'd enter my "perfect image" only to have Matt or Chronos or Leo or someone pick it apart. I'd be bummed. And maybe mad. But invarably, after a period of time (maybe hours, days, weeks, or sometimes even months, I'd realize the validity of their comments. It's human nature. But once I got past that ego thing... I really started to learn. Heck, I've put up an image that had won recognition in an international competition, only to have Chronos show me how to make it better! Lots better. And that's not to say that all comments are valid. Especially if our intended output is just an image for our own use. Then.... the bottom iine is what makes us feel the best.

What's the remedy? I don't know. But I do know it will help if we are honest in our critique, say what we like about an image, and then add what we think could improve it, or what is technically wrong with it. And then.... learn to take those critiques with a grain of salt. Maybe take a peak at the critiquers (word?) gallery to figure out if they have a solid base for their opinions.... and then remember, it's all opinions. Even the best art work in the world is liked by some, and loathed by others. And not just mimic others "this is great, I really like it!" type of comments.

I don't mind not using the number scale... and I'm seeing some use it, and others use it for retribution. Silly.

I'm only fighting here for this, as this site is unique, and has great value. Lets use it to its full potential. And not use it just to get our egos stroked.

Carolyn

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Good points by all.

I will admit I use a sliding scale on critique. If someone has been here a while and posted some solid shots, maybe even been a top 6 a few times, I don't pull punches much. On the other hand, some folks are fairly new and the feedback needs to be a bit more basic in detail or comment. Plus I tend to be VERY ENCOURAGING to newbies. I almost wish entrants could check a box asking for easy, moderate or semi-pro feedback on their shots so we could gauge their digestion ability.

BTW (for anyone else reading this thread), I fall under category that wants detailed technical feedback. I know enough about my camera and photoshop that I can take some pretty direct feedback, so bring it on. I want to get better.

Buddy

__________________
Buddy

There are always two people in every picture: the photographer and the viewer. - Ansel Adams

Last edited by buddy4344 on Apr 30th, 2007 at 12:32 AM

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I see what you're getting at Buddy, but the problem I have on a personal level is that this is a contest I'm talking about...and if people post to a contest they should expect their work to be judged against a rather high bar.

As time has gone on the standard has become sloppier....people who come here quite often posting not very good shots of kittens/puppies/babies because they love their pets & kids and want us to see them. I love to see them too, they are legitimate sujects, but not if it a bad snapshot.

People are even resenting critiques you give to shots they like. Someone just did that to me...I had offered constructive criticism that was well received by the poster....that was followed by a post from someone else who declared that "they" liked it with absolutely no input beyond that.

But I have determined one thing for myself, I'm not posting comment anymore to people who pout when someone has something critical to say.


Sheila.

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You all have very valid issues here But i also see where some of you that have been doing this for some time and have torn someone apart and there work could take the time to look at replies and plees for help with photoshop, comp focus ect and maybe post your thoughts on ways to better shoot Share some know how And perhaps not belittle those that at least make an effort to take the time to post then try to learn from you and others, and there mitakes Another thing we all may try is in the disciption field tell us why you think your photo is the best and why. I have not ever won anything here but i do see improvment in my work sometimes its slow and other times in leaps and bounds but I'm on a persute to make better photos for myself not the world there are a billion opinons out there whos to say which are right and wrong I dont mind taking critisum but at least be there to help those in need not leave them high and dry Art in any form is a work in progress regonize it and lets move on There are folks here that shoot in nothing but auto some who shoot semi auto and others shoot manual all are viable but everyone has opinions on those as well also i see alot of folks not including there data which is required here yet they still do it much to the dismay of many of us. There is only one more thing i"d like to say ninty percent of critiques are clouded by personal preference.

I am posting a link to something i read the other day called musings on photoghaphy take a look
http://photomusings.wordpress.com/2007/03/13/critiques/

Last edited by TcJohnson on Apr 30th, 2007 at 01:46 AM

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TC,
Let me be the first to apologize if I have "torn apart" your work. That has never been my intention.
When someone checks yes for critique, to me, that means yes for critique. I fully realize there are all levels from beginners to pros here. Hey, I was a total beginner having just bought my first slr (dslr as it were) in June of 2004. A nikon D70. I joined byte photo in September of 2004, and started to learn.

Maybe the culture here has just moved on, and I'm left behind.... maybe the most important thing to most of you is to "show" your work... and be proud of it. Nothing wrong with that.

As far as millions of opinions, and whose right and wrong.... you've got a valid point there... however, there are rules to learn. You should learn the rules before you can learn to break them. And I would think by entering a contest... and checking yes for critique, you are asking "how could I have made this better"????

Not all of us are as smooth in critiquing as others. So be it. I don't think anyone is intending to hurt feelings, but I realize it happens (myself included on both ends of that stick).

If the majority here just want to "show and tell" "tell and be told" how great your shot is.... then I'm way out of line, trying to pull us back to the days or yore....

Again.... I apologize profusely for "tearing" any of your images apart.

The link was interesting. Another point of view. I do not however hold this photographers opinion in the same place I hold Imogene Cunningham, Paul Strand, Alfred Stieglitz, Ansel Adams.....'s opinions on opnions ;)

Thanks for taking time to express yours!


Carolyn

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TC,

I too apologize if you feel I've torn your work apart. My intention has never been to be anything more than helpful and supportive. In fact, I believe all three of us who have posted on this thread are people who are helpful and supportive to others on this site. Carolyn and Buddy share their knowledge most generously.

I have to echo what Carolyn wrote above, I share her views on this subject.

Sheila.

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Carolyn, Sheila
When i Joined Byte i to thought i had exellent Photos and they are to me but i also wanted to have them critiqued so i could get better i want to learn continue to learn i shoot lots of shots in different modes and settings when i post i feel i have the best photo for me There have been times i get upset but feel that folks wouldnt give there opinion unless it was valid i allways try to learn from them But when someone critiques and leaves ? marks they are also going to be there to read a reply and perhaps share some wisdom I would like nothing more than to win but as with all good things it comes in time and a little hard work and some encouragement and a little stroking to let folks know you see there trying isn't to much to ask Because this is supposed to be an enjoyable deal otherwise No one would be here!


I can take all you can dish! And thrive on it but I also think everyone could share there knowldge in the digital darkroom and technique
and Perhaps one day i can present my works to the world And they see from My point of view For Thats what photography is.

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Travis, I just checked your gallery. Check out my comments to your work. I think they are helpful and encouraging. You do me a disservice by suggesting otherwise.

Sheila.

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TC, I am always happy to share tips both shooting, and in post. I don't do anything in post that I could not do in a wet darkroom, so, there's tons I don't know. But, if you ever have a question, please feel free to ask. I'm sure there are many members here that will back me up on this.... I'll help all I can. My typical workflow consists of shooting in raw, setting levels if needed. Convert to B&W with channels. Adjusting contrast with curves. Adjusting contrast further by dodging and burning.
My workflow for colour leaves out the conversion and the dodge/burn. Pretty straightforward, PS. I'll clone out dust if I mess up and have dirt on my sensor (then I'll clean it!!)

I think one key to good photography, is see what you want. Position your camera. Set your exposure and focus. Shoot. Then try a couple of different exposures, and move about some. Then learn to be judicious about keepers and duds. You only need one good one. That's much better than 5 so/so shots.

Carolyn

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Ok Folks all Im saying is when you critique if you know how to fix it then share that knowldge not all of us know what can be done in programing and settings in camera say the DOF is worng perhaps suggest a ap setting or saturation is not enough Suggest uping it or A little help in tone curve ajustment and walk us through it a bit Because some of the things that can be done such as dodging burning conversions are like speaking a different language and some tutoring will also help us learn faster even a link to helpful info if you have it

I am in no way trying to do anyone here an injustice and have learned much from you all and i do agree that the critiques need to be more pointed as of late I also have to say im won of the worst as far as Not totaly knowing How to Tell if Dof Focus Color Contrast are right for that artist but will pay more attention to it and do some more research to better understand and improve my comments for you all
Travis

Last edited by TcJohnson on Apr 30th, 2007 at 04:06 AM

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Travis, with the best will in the world it's hard to find time to give the extensive advice you appear to be asking for - not just to you but to others too.

I'd like to suggest you treat yourself to a year's membership to NAPP. Their magazine Photoshop User comes with it and the web site is loaded with excellent tutorials. It's $100 for a year and for someone as interested in photography as yourself I know you would get so much out of it.

Sheila

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I have read everything that was written on the thread twice. I almost chose not to respond because I am somewhat new to the site. With that being said I am going to tell you what I think, and why I am here!

I am here because I love photography, like most everyone that would spend their time at this site... Some people are very talented and do not mind sharing their knowledge. I am trying to learn as much as I can. Does that mean I solicit feedback from the contest. absolutely!!! To me that is the purpose of the forum. I certainly do not mind positive feedback....But I certainly want negitive too, so I can lean...I have asked numerous times for people to use the grading system on my shots. So, I get a better ideal what people like and dislike.
I believe that you do not need to be a pro to participate. You just have to have passion for the art, and be willing to learn....and teach others that are trying to achieve the same thing!
I believe that this can be done in a positive manor!

Joe

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