Plea From One Photog To Another

[TcJohnson]

Over the years I have seen images that I may not care for, understand or have critiques that are not favorable, be selected and win. Because others see something myself or others did not. You, me, and the pro’s are all looking to improve our skills, and appreciate comments, thoughts, even someone’s take on what the image means. From a beginner to the seasoned pro. We all crave to be the best we can be.

But if no one comments or has anything to say, then what is the point. We all lose out because no one has a view or tip that may help another photog advance and learn. We are left with zero satisfaction and eventually give up.

My bet is, many of us post and then look for the comments on our own work many times though the week. I suggest every time you look at your own stuff, look at several others and leave a comment or remark on a couple. We can all benefit from each other and I believe why we all are here in the first place to learn, grow, and ultimately WIN!!! Just saying.

TcJohnson

[51Goldie]

I think it's kinda because those of us who are beginners feel awkward about critising the pros work. Sometimes I like a shot but can't explain why, sometimes I really don't like a shot but because others do, I think I am missing the point and therefore don't say anything.
If you are self taught (as I am) you possibly don't always get the jargon right and maybe feel a bit dumb.
Personally I enjoy the criticism, it helps me to look at my shots objectively (I may not always agree but do try to look objectively at it).

Great discussion this - lets see where it goes. My guess is that it won't really alter things (but hey what do I know?).

[TcJohnson]

For some of the very reasons you stated, is exactly why we should comment. Then re read what others come back with. Jargon as you put it, comes with reading and asking questions. and there are no dumb questions other than the one we did not ask.
I feel dumb everyday and every time i post a Comment, Critique, Remark. I also worry others will take what i am trying to say the wrong way. Then their are other times i feel someone is being harsh but in reality they are trying to tell me something.
Your comment about objectively looking at it is spot on. I have met some of the most fantastic people i know here and on other sites. they are trying to learn as well refining technique, looking for new tricks and wanting to know if others see what they see.
They are also a lot of fun to shoot with. when the occasion presents itself. It may not help things, but you have to push the shutter to get the image. That seldom works if you don't analyze, question, and change the settings .

[Kyotie]

You are very right, but!!! This is not an easy thing. When a person puts a photo in a contest, I assume it is the best they got at the time, and the contest is not the place to make critiques open to the public, it would hurt their chances of winning. Now some people can't handle a critique, others thrive on them, I for one grow on every honest critique.
So the best way of doing critiques is here on a forum like this, not in a contest. We need a place to show our photos to be critiqued by others, in this way we can help each other do better. Here take one of mine and everyone critique it. Hey! how do I down load a photo?

[TcJohnson]

Interesting you would say that. Every person that looks at an image critiques and comments to themselves or family members. I have been here since 06 and this is the way it has always been done.
I have seen many an image that had less than favorable comments, critiques be selected and win. No matter what you or i say. The folks picking the selections for the week will choose the best images and then we will all vote after that.

My question back to you is Which images do you vote for??............ My bet is the ones that you personally feel were the best. Weather it is less than perfect or not.

At one time their was a critique board here and it was used. Yet images in the contest were still critiqued, commented on. Yes i would like to see a message board where we could throw up the days catch and chat a bit and unwind for the evening.

[Skeuos]

Travis, thanks for starting the thread. Honest critiques have always been what Byte thrives on. I used to participate on other sites, but it seemed that no one ever was willing to provide anything more that "good shot" on them. I've been on Byte since 2007 (with a break from 2009 until recently, admittedly) and Byte is what helped me grow into what I can do now. That's nowhere near as good as many, but I've vowed never to take down my 1st 2 entries as a marker of where I started (that used to be a more meaningful statement when storage space was limited). Critique has made it possible for me to snag a few POTWs over the years. Never would've made it without it - and not just critiques on my shots, but also the exercise of critiquing other people's shots and seeing what other photogs thought of other shots.

Kyotie - I would challenge your statement. Just because the contest is someone's best effort at the moment doesn't mean that it's not open for critique. If my best isn't worth the prize, I want to know. And I want to know why. Ultimately, it's a vote, and I don't know about you, but I'm not reading critiques again during final voting. I vote for the shot I feel is best*, regardless of what was said during the comment period. One person's flaw may be another persons diamond in the rough, or even intentionally rough diamond. The very things that make you vote or not vote for a shot are the very things that belong in comments during the open period. So post them.

My 2 cents; that's probably enough for now as I don't need it to become 5 cents.

steve


* - I admit to not voting in categories for shots I have a finalist in. I won't vote for my own, so I feel it best to abstain. When there were no categories, I would vote for a shot other than my own; now I feel that abstaining isn't as much of an issue as it only pertains to one category. Perhaps a topic for another thread.

[Kyotie]

I could go thru and pick out stuff I think I could do better on almost every photo in every contest, but do you think that would help? There are a number of very good photographers that will almost always show up in the finals, and some ok photographers that will make it once it a while, and some that may never make it. If we wanted to start a school to help people do better in the contest that is one thing, but to point out the flaws in someones work in the middle of a contest is something else, it could get competitive and nasty. In a contest I prefer to compliment and do one on one when coached or being coached. People don't aways know what is a technically good photo, just what they like, that is BytePhotos job, too weed out bad stuff, the problem is sometimes there is not enough technically good stuff, or too much. I could go over your photos one by one and tell you what I honestly think if you want, I am learning like you, but I am sure I have different view, you can take or leave my opinion? Or if you want you can go over my photos, if this was done in the public eye then others will learn from it as well.

[TcJohnson]

Steve my first images were the same way. Although i took them down many noons ago, i still look back and laugh at where i started.
Were it not for the extremely talented individuals here. Taking time to comment and critique my images, putting up with my ridiculous Retorts and sometimes silly comments/questions. I would have given up a long time ago.
I can remember being upset and discouraged many times, but still putting up new images and moving forward because of the information gained from others. Adding what they said to my tool box for future use. Making friends along the way, and growing. When i got that first selection in the top six, i was extremely excited. It didn't win but it fueled my fire that much more to read, listen, shoot, and appreciate what they were telling me.

[Kyotie]

Skeuos: I see your point, before the finals it is not as critical, but does everyone feel this way? if so I have on problem with it and I feel it would do a lot of people a lot of good, including me, we could also point out what is right about photos, but you must have the photographers best interest in heart, and be respectful.

[TcJohnson]

The sad thing is in the last sixty days or so. No one or very few are saying anything Good or Bad. I like to here from my fellow Photog what there thoughts are and weather or not they think i made the shot in that situation. Keeps me fresh and on my toes. Not to mention helps keep the buddy system from taking over the show. Kyotie that is what we are supposed to do, have our fellow photogs best interest in mind while commenting. Yes give the good and a tip to correct the problems. If you have it, if not perhaps someone else will and help everyone out.

[RTaylor]

thanks for starting this Travis,
John, for most contests on other websites, no one gives critiques. A little history abut Bytephoto it has always been different here since 2003 when Paul the original owner created Bytephoto. In the beginning, it did get rather nasty because there were only 6 finalists and no categories, there was also ratings 1 through 10 during the contest and the owners would choose the 6 images that had the highest scores. People became quite upset if they did not get a 10, and felt quite insulted if they received an 8.
So everyone agreed to disable the ratings and just give critiques which was more helpful.

Members have the option to make changes of any suggestions. I don't disregard a good photo just because another member had given a critique of what they thought could be done to better it. Its all an opinion and only the artist makes the choice if they would like to take that suggestion.

Since the ratings were taken away, maybe around 2007? its been a lot more friendlier place here and no one felt they had to cheat to create accounts just to rate their photos high and someone else's low. Believe me, it happened a lot. Now the system is set that one person can not create more than one account.

I'm thinking some of the slow comments the past month or so is because the weather is nice and people are out shooting, starting to go on vacation and even though they still post photos, they may not have as much time to comment.

If every person who posted a photo to the contest each week (about 50-60) every day they logged in, seems most do every day... made even one comment, that would be 1 times 7 days times 50-60 members, that would be approx 385 comments per week. We should all try to at least find one photo that has no comments as yet and write a comment to let the photographer know what we appreciate about the photo and maybe a polite helpful suggestion if you think it could be improved slightly.
If I went by all the critiques, there would be a suggestion on every single photo leaving me with none to choose lol, so I go with my gut instinct on what I feel are deserving images to be chosen for the finals each week.

ok... off to day 2 of the Peddlers Village Fine Arts Festival

[Kyotie]

Personally anyone can say anything they want to any place any time, about my work, I want people to be honest with me, but I don't think that is what most people are looking for.
So if someone wants honest advice, then I think we should do that in a controlled environment like forum design just for that.
I like the way things are done here for the contest, only I think I should win first every time, we will have to fix that glitch! I think Ruth is fair and honest with her selections and not all of what she thinks may be the best wins either, but it is as fair as any I have seen, so the contest is not a issue. I don't think the thumbnails do justice to most shots, only the ones that make a good impression that small, but I've been told that can't be helped, so it is something we have to deal with.
So other than that we will have to find a way we can convince everyone that I need to take first place every time, and then we will have perfected the contest.

[RTaylor]

just an FYI, the critique area still exists, http://www.bytephoto.com/photopost/g597-photo-critiques.html

Members post there, mostly newer members not knowing that we also critique during the contest week, but not many people go to the critique area to give helpful comments.

I think its mostly because its split out into categories and you have to look into each of the 11 categories. I'm sure you will notice that some of the photos are even uploaded to the incorrect category from years back making it even harder for someone to want to look at photos only in one specific category.

You will also notice since we purchased Bytephoto and upgraded the software, there is a new option for members to create Groups, they can be used for whatever you wish.

http://www.bytephoto.com/forums/groups/


As for the thumbnails, you may have noticed that I set them larger than what they were about a month ago. Ours are about the same size as most I have seen on photography websites. We could make them slightly larger, but in doing so, would have to go from 4 images across to 3 images across, so we might have to see if members would prefer it. We don't want to make the thumbnail so large that it ends up preventing anyone from clicking to see it even larger which everyone has to do before they comment. It should be just a teaser

[Kyotie]

Well your doing a good job, and user group would be a good idea for critiques>

[RTaylor]

as far as voting, if every member that had a finalist image in the contest did not vote in that category, we would have 36 less votes, minus that out from the 47 we had last week and that comes to 11 less votes. wouldn't be worth the while to have a contest. Some members vote for other members images instead of their own in categories, others vote for themself. In either case, no one has ever won any contest at Bytephoto since I've been running it March 2009 because they voted for themselves. Sometimes if you see a winning image win by only 1 vote, most likely even the second place winner voted for their image. So take away both those votes and you still have the same winners in 1st and 2nd place. Its the votes from the rest of the members that vote for the winners

We need to vote in all categories so that we have a larger count of opinions. In the beginning of 2010 and even beginning of 2011 we had many newer members voting on one of the 6 categories, it was different members every single week. I would contact each and ask for their 5 other choices.