Selecting a D-SLR or SLR-like

[nature-guy]

Budget around $1000 but flexible.

I've been greatly enjoying my Olympus C3030 for a couple years and ready to move up. I'm self employed and would like more professional photos but I'm not a hardware geek till I get home on the computer. I do a lot of macros and outdoor landscape, want capable tool for tough lighting.

I was disappointed the SLR's don't allow LCD preview.... that is a big part of the appeal of digital photography for me to see the image contrast as I frame up. I'd like a usable optical viewfinder and LCD preview but that seems impossible? My old Oly had a useless optical viewfinder.

I'll miss having something that fits in my pocket. I don't want a bunch of lenses and stuff, something easy and comfortable.

Here's some I looked at:

Sony DSC-F828 Cybershot
+ good capable lense (fixed)
+ seemed intuitive to use
+ 8MP
- no optical viewfinder
- bulky, silly swivel design
- not very pro (will I be laughed at, turn out to have weird design flaws, for consumers, not pros)

Cannon EOS Digital
+ SLR optical viewfinder
+ popular
- only 6MP
- ugly silver body, cheap plastic feel

Nikon D-70 Digital SLR
+ looks identical to Cannon but black
+ super fast to turn on & burst (old oly was slow & I'd miss wildlife shots)
+ supposedly better quality (various technical reasons I don't understand but I DO want good quality ha ha)
- $300 more

Thanks for your thoughts!

[JCW3]

I would recommend you not to worry if the camera is PRO or not. I see you commenting many times that this camera is pro and this one is not. The cameras is the main tool, but the PHOTOGRAPHER means more than anything.

The one big advantage with a DSLR is image quality and control. Most DSLR's, now have decent image control incamera and very clean higher ISO settings. That will probably be a big plus in your nature work.

I see you have made a few comments about weight, size, and lenses. When going with a DSLR, the other big advantage is flexablity with removeing lenses and changing them. Though you dont have to own numerous lense and carry them around, many find it additcting. Also you must take this into condiseration when purchasing one. Most peopel forget this area.

I see you also commented on the Proconsumer Sony. This is a nice camera, but not in the same catagory as the others you listed. The 28-200 lens on the sony gives you nice flexablity, but as with eveything your limited in areas.

Many of the newer 8mp cameras are experianceing more noise than normal. This is due to the high density of pixels in such a small area. These cameras are giveing more detail, but at the same time your images will have much more noise than say you will find in a DSLR.

Again cost, size, and many other things must come into play when looking at a upgrade. I would recommend doing some personal test with all and see what you think.

I looked at your gallery and saw many macros and what I would refer to as senic style work. Is this what most of your work consist of?

[nature-guy]

Hi thanks, I'm worried about ""PRO"" because I'm a little dissapointed in my olyc3030 and it's shortcomings while I am not really motivated to learn about all the tech factors.

I noticed one complaint about the sony was the high noise over iso200 (though I frankly don't know what iso is good for, I appreciate the confirmation. I've been point & click since I got the oly digicam because the settings are too much trouble to access in a menu. Used to have a 35mm & used to have a clue about depth of field & such but am ignorant now.

I've sold a few pics and was always barely getting by with the 3.3MP resolution. The Sony is 8MP & the Nikon is only 6MP but has some kind of sharpening thing which sounds bogus??? I actually needed to provide a pic for wall poster size once and felt I was way underproviding.

Hmmmm it occurs to me that I might could get a smaller lense for typical needs that is not so awkward and keep something big & scary in my backpack for special cases. Most of my work is like you saw in the web page. Here's another gallery: http://hills.ccsf.edu/~pfurma02/inde...EEN=ecards.php

I do sometimes like to do urban stuff and prefer something discrete and inconspicuous that does not threaten people. I really loved the small oly [sigh].

I could be talked into spending $2,000 or more if there was value in it for my needs but wonder if I might be happier with something more compact and comfortable. An excellent compact that fired up quicker, more resolution and had a useable optical viewfinder and manual (hand operated) focus might be better since I really don't need a big macho camera and am happy putting everything on auto most of the time.

I can easily imagine wanting a sunset shot with good depth of field and a fast moving butterfly though so maybe I ought to get something more serious. I tried stars and night scenes with the oly and was sorely dissapointed.

Thanks for the thoughts!

[nature-guy]

OK I found some resources


The first two are geared mostly toward cheap point & shoots
up to the $1,000 range.

Commonsense discussions to get the big picture:
http://nordicgroup.us/digicam

Understandable reviews and a simple comparison search chart thingy:
http://www.dcresource.com

Really detailed reviews that give you a feel for the camera and could
almost be used as a manual to learn how to use it but not much clue if
it's a "good" or "bad" camera compared to others (flattering to all models):
http://www.steves-digicams.com

Another source for reviews (endlessly tedious):
http://www.imaging-resource.com




2. Total information overload,
incomprehensible but certainly comprehensive:

http://dpreview.com


I'm looking at the Olympus C8080 "SLR-like" because the controls are
familiar, it's not too large, better than the Sony & I don't like Canon.
Nikon doesn't seem to have anything in this category. Basically
anything in this $1,000 range is going to be much much much better than
my old Olympus C3030 3.3MP that I paid $800 for. I probably couldn't
sell it for $100 now. This one is an 8MP which is probably overkill but
in a few years I'm guessing a 6MP will be laughable. The nikon D70 seems
sort of austere & I'd miss framing up on an LCD screen. It has a digital
viewfinder with a zoomed window when focusing while twisting the lense
like the others. Sturdy metal body (neer neer canon!) is good for
banging around.
http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/ol...c8080wz-review
http://www.steves-digicams.com/2004_reviews/c8080.html
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/C8080/C88A.HTM

CONS (some snippage from steves-digicams):

motor-driven zoom (the manual nikon is so nice, sony's in manual also)

visual noise because of the excessive 8 MP (probably not astoundingly
good image quality) A true DSLR is much better although the resolution
is less, the nikon has some kind of built in thing that lets you enlarge
with better results than usual. This oly has some sort of noise
reduction feature.

Very fast at under two seconds from turning on the power until you
capture the first image (nikon is instant) my c3030 takes six miserable
seconds!!!

5/10 second shutter delay including autofocus (nikon is instant) not
sure how the others compare here.

2 sec shot to shot time if you want to see what you're doing, 14 seconds in RAW mode!!!! (big problem), there is a setting where you can get 5 images in 2.3 seconds if pre-focused or another mode gives 11 shots in 8.5 seconds, in autofocus: 13 shots in 12.4 seconds and almost a minute to recover from that or RAW mode burst sessions. Another review says a typical 2 second delay between shots and 8 seconds to load a RAW into memory (or maybe to preview?), and 1 second between shots if you turn off the post-shot review. 19 seconds for tiff.

2.2 fps up to 5 frames -pre-focused
1.2 fps up to 11 frames -reduced quality?
1.0 fps up to 13 frames -autofocus

the chart with the numbers below states the oly at:
1.6 fps up to 5 frames

2.7 fps, max 3 images -minolta on 'fine'
2.5 fps, max 6 images -canon
2.3 fps, max 7 images -sony
3 fps, up to 12 JPEG -nikon d70

Battery is $70 & takes SIX HOURS to charge on a big ugly rig. That's
pretty much impossible to do when traveling on a car adaptor or
campsite. Strictly for overnight at a hotel which I don't do so this may
be a fatal flaw. You can't put regular batteries in any of these.

I'm not sure what I'd be missing in terms of technical limitations
compared to the nikon but it's a far cry better than my current camera.
If I really needed more lenses for tele/macro there are a couple add-ons
for a couple hundred bucks each, like the canon (not for sony).

OTHER 8MP SLR-LIKE CAMERAS:
-----------------------------
Canon PowerShot Pro1 is the comparable SLR-like model, smaller, compact
lense (same range as the huge sony) though I don't know about quality,
not ugly silver like their true SLR, no Auto Focus Illuminator for low
light situations (a problem). Great battery, time lapse movie thing
which I would actually use, good software and RAW support. "Canon has
stumbled with their 8Mp Pro 1. They left out the AF assist lamp (the
Olympus C-8080 has it, and the Pro 1 has noise issues (though not as bad
as the Sony F-828)"

NikonCoolpix 8700 seems the comparable SLR-like model.
http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/ni...ix8700-review/
Kind of ugly styling IMO. Lame inexpensive $35 battery (recharges in
only 2 hours though). A bit smaller and noticeably lighter, takes 3.5
seconds to warm up which is pretty bad (under 2 seconds for the oly, 3
seconds for the canon). Seems to have worse noise levels than other 8MP
cams. Their 6MP SLR is great but this one seems nothing special though I
haven't looked that closely.

Minolta DiMAGE A2
http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/ca...il.php?cam=574
ugly!, Has anti-shake CCD system. Ultra-high resolution electronic
viewfinder??? (not sure how the others compare). I'll ignnore this one.

Sony Cyber-shot DSC-F828
http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/so...ew/index.shtml
nice lense but no add-ons available, big & bulky, nice feel, sturdy,
silly swivel body, lame LCD viewfinder, good battery, hi-tech laser
autofocus for low light & infrared night vision gimmick, nice menus and
controls but I like oly also. Somehow I didn't find the canon menus
intuitive. Manual focus ring would be nice but you can't really see in
the LCD to make use of it even with the enlarged window in the center as
compared with the nikon SLR. Seven pic burst at 2.3 frames/second and
only 9 seconds to recover! 2 second wake-up from off. Can't save
favorite settings to mode dial like other cameras. Low noise except at
high iso, purple-fringe is particularly bad. Remote is on a wire & costs
$90!! Overall very cool but big. The canon came later & is about equal
in ability.

So,

Here's a chart I did:

lense
----
Nikon 4x 18mm - 70mm (default lense)
Oly 5X 28mm - 140mm (adaptors available)
Sony 7x 28mm - 200mm
Canon 7X 28mm - 200mm (adaptors available)


aperture
----
Nikon F3.5 - F4.5
Oly F2.4 - F3.5
Sony F2.0 - F2.8
Canon F2.4 - F3.5


speed
----
Nikon 30 - 1/8000 sec plus bulb
Oly 15 - 1/4000 sec plus bulb mode to 8 min
Sony 30 - 1/3200 sec
Canon 15 - 1/4000 sec


Hmm, so the canon actually matches up pretty good. Hmmm. The Nikon would
need a telephoto lense which probably would cost what $800? so that's
not quite comparable.

Other thoughts about the Nikon
--------------
Exposure compensation is [-5 EV to +5 EV in 1/2 or 1/3 EV steps] versus
[-2 EV to +2 EV in 1/3 EV Steps] for the others. I don't know what this
means. No movie ability. Basically it's a better camera due to being an
SLR but that means no telephoto and no LCD preview shooting (I would miss that).

Here's the information overload chart for these cameras:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/comp...n_d70&show=all

Hmm, now I get to the bottom review section at
http://nordicgroup.us/digicam/ and see the Canon 10D is the champ for an
SLR, nikon D70 is good & the oly comes above the sony & comparable nikon
rated "Best 8Mp SLR-Like". Also, I could still have something that fits
in a coat pocket with the canon G5 at 5MP for a high-end point & shoot.

So, I think I may be OK with the Olympus C8080. It'd be heavy & bulky
compared to the canon and I get to use LCD preview to frame up pictures.
Biggest problems are slow battery charge (need to buy three at $70 each
for a busy camping trip) and won't have the best quality as with a true
SLR but as good as any in it's class, and the slow reaction time between
shots though it is quite fast waking up.

Add-ons that I might want for the oly:
------------------------------------
$210 three 512mb memory cards (only 44 pics in RAW, 134 jpgs)
($200) telephoto lense (no rush)
($20) software upgrade to stitch panoramas (only with olympus cards)
$150 B-HLD30 power battery holder?
$140 two extra batteries

[JCW3]

I see your still bounceing between models. The biggest thing is, your comparing consumer cameras states to DSLR states. Sometimes they look similar on paper, but not in real life.

The biggest thing with a DSLR is the senser, its WAY bigger than a normal consumer camera. With this your going to be able to get much more silky smooth images and much cleaner ISO settings. There really is no comparison, point blank the DSLR is going to take it here.

As for the consumer end of your list, looks as if your mostly looking at the 8mp line. These cameras are great for detail and pack alot, but again THEY PACK A LOT OF PIXELS IN A SMALL CHIP! When all these pixels are packed into on small chip you will notice much higher noise. Many of these cameras will have higher than normal noise at ISO 50 or 100, anything above that really starts to show. But noise means nothing to some people, if your one of those, then dont worry.

I would recommend looking at the camera layout. Some cameras are going to force you to use those MANUAL settings to get the best out of it. Its all good and great to have those settings and features if your going to use them, but if not, they may become to much. I seen it happen many times.

Each one of these cameras are going to have differant pros and differant cons. Out of the bunch you listed, the Olympus is probably going to be the most user friendly. I have found its good in auto and has decent control if manual is needed.

The Canon is a great camera as well, but the lens fixture is a little weaker than normal, and I personally would highly recommend a lens tube for protection. Quality wise, it really shines compared to many of the 8mp consumer cameras. But it has a design you will love or hate. There has been a few quality control issue with this camera though, but I think they have been fixed, but not sure.

The nikon 8700 is a powerful little camera with many controls and features. But this is a camera you WILL HAVE to learn. Some learn it in a week, some take months. It is amazing in the right hands, but you must work the camera, or it will work you. The noise is a hair more than some other 8mp, but not to bad.

The A2 is a great camera as well. Trully the most feature rich camera you have listed besides the DSLR Nikon. Its a camera that packs alot in a small package. The noise on this camera is going to be noticable. It seems to have a course grain noise, that most notice right off, but its fixable. As far as controls, its trully amazing. This is going to have the most 35mm feel out of the consumer line.

Then you have the Nikon D70, its on a differant level, and I will let it rest at that. Again an amazing camera, but its going to be a camera you work, its not gear for the point and shooter if your looking for the best quality. The larger senser is going to give nice results if your looking to do blow ups, since the noise of the other small sensors will show up greatly at this size. If your looking for DOF control, you will have much more here since it has a larger sensor.

Again numbers are important, but the biggest thing is image quality for most. Again your compareing the 3030 to camera on a differant level. The little 3030 is a great camera, but it has its limitations as well.

[JCW3]

I also saw you stated that some cameras have add on lens and other dont. DONT WORRY, there are many high end converters made that will work with those consumer cameras you listed.

Some cameras are easier to mount to than others, but many manufacures make lens tubes it there camera needs one to adapt a lens.

[nature-guy]

Thanks JCW!!

I'm currently looking at either a Nikon D70 or Canon Pro1 right now (or maybe the oly C8080 he he).

I just came from testing some models at a couple camera shops & got a quote for a full package to suit my needs:
$999 Nikon D70 body
$369 Nikkor 28-200 (35mm equivalent) lens
$327 three 512MB 12x cards
$329 one 1GB 80x card
$30 small, simple bag
$18 wireless remote
$80 two extra batteries (digital concepts)
$20 UV filter to protect lense
$2,172
8.5% sales tax (SF)
$185
$2,357
$263 extended warranty (covers repairs and careless damage -anything but fire- for two years)
$2630. TOTAL
oh yeah a card reader too! so lets just call it
$2700

I wouldn't likely need anything else ever... I'm really not a lense geek so I just upgraded the starter lense so I don't have to worry.

My big hesitation is that I loved the old oly c3030 point & click (full manual override for a few specific things) and I loved that it fit in my pocket and I loved using the LCD to frame pics. The DSLR does not give you a true preview of the exposure and even the frame is not identical at 95% of the final pic. It's got a quick way to lighten or darken as needed (affects shutter speed) and everything else I left on auto so I don't currently even care to understand the other settings (though I could learn if it was easier to control... it was too damn akward on the oly... buried in menus). I have two techniques for locking focus at macro level either 8 inches or 30 inches and used zoom & moving the camera back & forth to fine tune focus & framing. That's it! then I was free to just shoot & not worry about settings.

I'm pretty worried that the D70 is lacking the exposure preview of an LCD display and in fiddling around in the shop today, I was unable to find a method of quicly bumping up/down the lightness or darkness without shifting my brain out of creative mode into math mode. If I get it, I suppose I'll learn how and be a much better photographer in the end. It works fine in auto mode too. I literally had no clue what fstop or speed do to the image after 2 years using the oly in point & click. And no motivations to learn.

If I don't get the D70, I like that the Canon pro1 is much much smaller. Even if it doesn't fit in my pocket, the D70 is going to make me feel embarassed in public (don't want to look like a hot shot - loved the subtlety of the oly). And it's going to be a big descission to bring along anywhere when I head out the door. I could literally keep the oly with me 24-7 if I wanted to. The D70 is huge.

I guess I'm now convinced that the DSLR is superior in image quality to an 8MP non-SLR. I chose the Nikon because the Canon is ugly silver and cheap, plastic feeling (even if that's silly, it's decided). If there was a 6MP digital that I could fit in my pocket, I might do that but the main motive for upgrading is I've been laughed at a few times with my 3.3MP oly pics because they aren't big enough & the viewfinder is not good enough to focus with. The D70 would let me do anything I could imagine (and that's a lot). I like night shots (or evening) and the noise factor on the 8MP's might make those crappy though I'm not real picky about noise, I'll appreciate having an excellent camera... I'm always wanting to push the limits with contrast, depth of field, etc.

The Canon Pro1 seems awfully slow compared to the D70. I would be able to use RAW mode with the D70 & would really appreciate being able to pull that puppy out, turn it on & snap a bee or butterfly before it got away. I'd be building a database of extraordinary quality uncompressed images rather than mediocre grainy jpegs.

[Scrappy]

I have the fuji finepix S5000 SLR type. It has both the LCD monitor and the viewfinder. I am very happy with this camera.

Hi,

All the cameras that you are looking are good. But have you held or even tried them??? The Camera has to feel comfortable to you for you to like. I have a Kodak 6490. It has Manual or full auto controls. No manual focusing though. I am looking at the New Nikon 8800. It has 35-380 lens on it. it does most everything that I would want it to do. Magnesium body versus plastic, Plus manual focusing.

You can add this one to your list of cameras. I do not want to lug a DSLR and lenses around when I go to take pictures. I mostly do landscapes and widlife. So I don't need all the extra baggage while walking thru the woods to take pictures.

Whatever camera you finally choose, I hope that you enjoy it asmuch as your old one.

bluwing

[gary_hendr]

Hi

Here's a page you may wanna check out:

http://www.basic-digital-photography...-amateurs.html