Are we rating too high at BP?

[FotoPdR]

Hello!

I would like to post the next thesis:

Are we rating to high at this website?

Why this? Often I see photos with very high ratings and good comments, but the photo is not very special, or has a high originality level / very good techniques. I know giving a rating depends for a big part on your own taste, but we might be more critiqal.
A high rating is good for the ego of the photographer, but he doesn't learn much from it. A rating must be more accurate. Remember that you can learn from critiques. I feel that some people are too soft with giving ratings.

What do you think about this?

Regards, Pim

[JCW3]

This topic has been touched on before, but every few months its nice to see it come up.

In the past I have seen good photos get 9-10's and even bad photos with technical flaws get 7-8's. Many times they deserve much less, but many voters just dont give the true rateing. I feel this is due to the fact is there is a true standard on how everyone votes. Many long term voters vote similar, but even with that we often just do the gut feeling instead of points.

I personally feel a photo rated as a 5 is not a bad thing. To me a 5 is like getting a C. Its good, but nothing special. A 5 photo could be a nice snapshot that has nice composition, but lacks in other areas. But how often do you see a 5?

To me the number is a not worth 1/2 as much as the comment. I would rather spend 5 minutes writing a comment and telling them what I thought about it and why, instead of just popping them a quick number.

But in my eyes, YES the photos are over rated. And I will be the first to admit I sometimes rate them higher than what I feel, to be part of the group. I mean if I am judgeing on a harsh scale and 20 others are on a Bytephoto scale, then I am the odd ball. So as with most, we just try to fall into the norm.

[Loft]

...fully with PdR

[raaf]

True, I agree with JCW3 and yes, this topic has been handled several times. What can you do. Actually nothing. Rating someones photo with a 5 (which means not good and not bad) will offend people and will result in some nasty discussions. Rating a 9 or 10 will satisfy at least the photographer.
Unless a complete different rating mechanism is applied, the BP rating will be too high.

[FotoPdR]

I'm sorry, I didn't noticed that this topic shows up almost montly, I'm rather new at this site.

It's a pity that it isn't possible to create a rating system what gives more accurate ratings on photos.

Well, thanks for the reply's!

Pim

[Irish]

Pim I have been here a little short of a month and jumped in feet first giving what I thought was an honest rating in the POTW....I got some stick (some of deserved) for a lower rating than others.

My posting at:

Critique?????

explains how I feel.......

It would seem to me that mostly the photos that we like are rated (often too high for often emotive reasons) and the photos that may benefit from an honest critique and lower score are often not rated at all.

Sure its good to the soul to get a high rating.....but do we truly encourage learning this way??

Just my two bobs worth.

[northbeach]

I agree, I think the ratings are too high. Unlike Andy, I've never had the guts to truly rate my heart. Maybe I'll start this week. Hmmm....people will hate that.

It's often the chocolate box lid school of photography that ends up winning POTW.

[Irish]

Originally posted by northbeach It's often the chocolate box lid school of photography that ends up winning POTW.

If you want to sell chocolates then you have to package them right????

(just playing devil's advocate for a moment)

The problem seems to me that we are not told the context of the photo.

Is it to sell the chocolates, to tell a story, to hang on the office wall, to commemorate a special moment, to remind us of our holiday or for the pure joy of using your new DSLR???? All valid reasons for photography but all require a different approach and often a different outcome.

We the viewer have the image, the title and often a very short discription to critique on. And a very wide-ranging group of subjects and skills to boot.

Just my thoughts..Thanks for 'listening'

[jerrymeola]

the problem with rating a picture is that there is no objective standard against which to rate the picture and when we view a single image we have no context of how or why it was shot.

For an extreme example lets consider photos by National Geographic. Top professional photographers easily their technical marks always rate a 9-10 which is why I chose them for an example. For the congtext in which they were taken (that is to tell a story) they are usually 8-10 BUT as individual images they are often nothing special when taken out of context most I would rate 5-6 but they were not taken to be viewed out of the story.

An equal problem is with Associated Press photos, again top prfessionals. The images often are dramatic and stand alone well. They have to as a newspaper has to tell the whole story or at least most of it in that one phototo get your attention. On this basis they usually rate 7-10. BUT technically they are sometimes blurred or a little soft or slightly out of focus because the only photo is more important to tell the story than worry about technical perfection. The photographer did not have a second chance.

I could go on with more examples. When we take a photo that may rate 10 for the purpose it was taken and view it out of context it may really deserve a 5.

Finally for ameteurs looking to learn maybe we should give several ratings discuss it in the comments and give an average. Such as 8 for good composition 5 for over sharpening 7 for being too sharp and losing the mood of a softer image and -2 for the distracting object in the lower left. All these could apply to the same image.

The number given is not very important a good comment that teaches something is valuable

[Andyj]

I've read through this post with some interest. Previously I would have agreed that my ego would be boosted with an 9 or 10 and that I would feel disappointed with a 5. Maybe I will request more feedback from now on from people that rate an image of mine!

Maybe. when rating an image, comments should be mandatory and perhaps structured so that not just one grade is given, but serveral for the different aspects of the image (composition, subject colours, sharpness, DOF etc). This way, the photographer could learn something and perhaps improve his/her photography technique.

Just my three shillings worth!

[FotoPdR]

Just what Andyj says, comments on an image should be more important than a rating. People should give more critiqual comments and explain why they give their rating.
On top of that, I agree with a system where we can rate more aspects of the image. I don't know if this is possible on the forum we use at BytePhoto, but it sure will improve the quality of this site.

Rating an image has two parts: a rather objective point: the technical (skills) part and an emotional part, which is subjective. Both sides can we splitt in:
Technique: A mark for 'Use of the cameras' technical possibilities', a mark for 'composition', a mark for aesthetics overall.
Emotional: just one mark for the (personal) emotional value.

In the post above there are a lot of good explains about why people rating too high. I think that people have to understand that a rating like 5 isn't bat, but just average. We are not talking about school-marks.

Pim

[Tara]

I also agree that the photos are rated too high here. I have to admit that I have been one of these "high" markers in the past but I am trying to be more strict lately.

It can be hard as I have had some members become extremely angry at giving them a 4/10 and they have retaliated by giving my photo also a 4/10. It is this pettiness that makes it hard to give true ratings as you have no idea how the other person will react.

This week I have tried to be stricter to the rating system. I have given no 10/10 as I haven't had a photo jump at me that I think is perfect. I have even given a 3/10 but it will be interesting to see if I get backlash for this.

I would prefer to get comments over ratings as I find it is hard to improve without the great help I get from the members here. Of course this would make the POTW competition obsolete

[northbeach]

Which might not be bad idea, Tara.

Suppose instead of POTW we had a gallery simply for people who had photographs they wanted comment on? Not a rating, just constructive and thoughtful comments.

[jlpriestley]

I have been watching this thread from the start. So here goes....

I think that often times photos are rated too high on this site. I think that 10's are handed out too easily. I also think that in order for your photo to make the final cut it pretty much needs a 10, or thereabouts. Anything less than a 9 and you are history.

On the flip side, I think that there are some fairly "bad" photos that are displayed. I think the vast majority of those are from people who are still learning but are proud of their work and want to share it. Personally, I don't see the benefit from giving a bad rating -- meaning a really low score. True it might stink that bad, but I guess I just feel like it isn't going to serve as constructive criticism. Yes, if someones "bad" picture got a 6 or a 7, it may be too high, but at the same time, that photographer who is probably excited about their pictures won't feel as though they are being put down if they get a fair score. I DO think that if there are problems with a picture that they should absolutely be pointed out, but to exclamate the critique with a low score serves no purpose. They really have no chance of scoring up with the highest scoring shots so is there any harm in giving an average score rather than one in the basement? Another option -- no score, just comments as some already do.

As for 10's, I try look through the photos all week, and when I have seen what there is to offer, I take my personal favorite and give it a 10. True, there isn't always a flawless shot, but usually there are 2 or 3 standouts and this is my way of giving my favorite a little nudge.

As for people commenting on a low rating, I think petty ranting is foolish. I have commented back on a low rating (once), and I did this because I honestly felt it was a good picture -- I would not post one if I did not think it was such. Call it pride or something else. If someone disagrees strongly about a comment, I think it is ok to respond in a reasonable manner. Firing back an equally low rating on another picture is just childish; sparking a discussion is something totally different.

As for a new rating system, I think the key thing (for me at least) is time. If it involves a more drawn out process, it would be tough to keep going. If some sort of template could be constructed with checkboxes, that might be easy to use -- boxes for composition, quality, etc.... How hard that would be to do, I have no idea. The bottom line though is that nothing beats a critique in the form of words and explanation.

A gallery for comments might be good, and easy. The POTW can get a bit tiring sometimes, and many times I have photos that I just want to show off and spark a discussion or something (comment on my fireworks people!!! ) True there are the member galleries, and the assignment section, but there is nothing somewhat informal to my knowledge -- something like a "coffeeshop" gathering spot.

Time to put my fingers on ice... I am done.

[jlpriestley]

Me again.

OK, after my rant from last night, I was loking at some of the photos in this weeks POTW. After sorting in order of popularity, I noticed, in my opinion, that a number of the photos are rated pretty high. I also noticed below the number scale that there was typed "poor", "good", and "excellent". I have been here for a few months and it never really registered that was written there. So I was thinking of the possibility of the admins creating a link to a guideline for judging photos -- something that stands out by the rating scale in boldface that newbies might click on to get a sense of score, and that members can possibly refer to to try and judge at a fairly consistent level -- excepting the French figure skating judge (that was a joke).

I came up with this scale as an example. Using this type of guideline my scores would in general, probably drop a tick or two. Anybody have their own idea(s) along this line? Anyone else like this idea?? Anyone else agree or disagree? Any admins out there want to join in?? Anyone want me to go away??

It just seems that there is a lot of differences developing and I am just trying to help.... I will crawl away now and watch.

Jim.


My scale -- nothing is a substitute for a written critique with explanation though.

10 -- Flawless in all ways and could not be improved (in ones own eye)
9 -- Nearly flawless, technically superior, interesting photo.
8 -- Photo may contain a very minor issue with composition, focus, exposure, or color, but still is a great photo.
7 -- Picture may have more than one issue with various elements or subject matter, but overall the image is good.
6 -- Picture may have an obvious flaw, be out of focus, or contain some other problem that detracts from the photo. Picture may be good in some ways, technically or otherwise, but problems are affecting the overall impression of the image.
5 -- Picture contains one or more serious flaws, or is lacking in subject matter. Needs improvements or changes in some way.
4 -- Something is wrong here. Auto-focus was left off and subject is blatantly out of focus, composition is out of whack -- picture may be pleasing to the photographer but may not be to the unbiased eye.
2/3 -- Picture is destined for the recycle bin.
1 -- you left the lens cap on....