Challenge Contest

[Matt_C]

Hi All

I have been talking to admin along the lines of setting up a Bytephoto challenge contest. We've come up with a basic outline for the contest but before we go any further we wanted to run it by everyone to get your thoughts and ideas on the form it should take. Similar contests happen on many sites all over the web and we thought it would be a good way to help photographers expand on their current photography skills and a good way for the site to move forward.

This would be the basic outline as it stands.

1. The winner of the previous contest would set the theme of the next challenge along with any special rules and requirements. This would be set in the challenge forum with a thread and members can discuss and ask questions if they need to. Themes will be up to the winners but can be just about anything. A few examples are, macros, portrait, rule of thirds, colours, hands, technology, family, love, pets, religion, travel, work, home, teamwork, water, food, toes, weather. The list is endless and usually the stranger the better.

2. The contest would run over a number of weeks maybe 2 maybe longer. (Still to be decided, need your input)

3. Members will be able to view the gallery just like they can with the POTW and leave comments and ratings. Ratings however will have very little influence on the winner and are not needed, in fact in my view it would be better not to rate at all and just give feedback. Comments and feedback are more important here.

4. Members can enter photos up until the final week of the challenge. Any photos entered in the final week of the challenge will not be accepted.

5. The final week of the challenge will be used for voting. Members will be able to choose between all the pictures that have been entered and cast one vote.

6. The three with the highest votes will then be awarded first, second and third places. First place will then choose the theme for the next challenge starting and finishing dates etc. If for any reason the winner would rather not do this then it will goto 2nd and then third place.

This would in no way effect the POTW contest which will run as normal with no change.

I have talked this over with admin and all of the above are possible but we would love to get your views and ideas. I thought we could start with a two week contest but I've a feeling members will need longer, so maybe three. Remember the final week will be just for voting. What do you think?

Just so you know I suggested some other things but because of site limiltations at the moment they are not possible. These were

1. Entries would be anomynous until after the contest.
2. No option to score or rate a photo.
3. Members to vote on their first second and third and points given accordingly.

As I said these three were not possible just in case anyone wanted to suggest them.

I would love to get some feedback on this even if you totally disagree with the above. This is your chance everyone to have your say so go for it. It may be you would like it to run exactly like the POTW contest which would be fine. My personal view is though it would be better to have something a little different without pressures of scoring and selecting finalists that runs alongside the POTW without competing with it, but that's just my view.

I'll stop there. I hope all that made sense. English was never my strong point.

OK members, give us your thoughts.

Thanks

Matt

[eye_c]

hey matt
i think its a great idea. but the 2nd and 3rd place is not really needed if only the winner get to choose the next theme.maybe all 3 winners could decide the theme and would only be fair if they can not enter for the theme they choose.
1- to let other people win
2-because they could choose a very specific theme where they would have advantage cuz they have a very good photo representing this theme.
i also think it should be more than 2 weeks,maybe a few months,maybe make it a monthly theme.since there is already a weekly contest.
maybe limit people to 1 photo per theme
just a few opinion
but i think it would be a great idea

[bytethis]

G'day Matt.

Good thinking.

I think this is what this site (and new and existing digital shooters) need.

To me, the basis of what you've described is great. Perhaps some fine tuning, but essentially, as other sites successfully have this type of challenge or contest in place, I think it'd be a great addition to Byte. I've mentioned the critique section is under utilised, this could perhaps even replace the critique and assignment sections and be less of an administration hassle for admin (maybe at a later stage anyway)

Couple of things I can think of as I type, are I agree with eye_c in regards 1st, 2nd, and 3rd placings may have issues and not work so well...in that unless we're submitting for respective prizes, then there'd be no real point of having anyone other than an overall winner...the same as the POTW comp right now.

I also suggest that the image(s) submitted would be freshly shot for the theme chosen...i.e. not images that you've already got in your library...you need to go out and capture expressly for the challenge - that's perhaps the best way to expand on people's current skill set. maybe not a hard and fast rule, but it's something I'd be doing for example, and it'd be fairer all round as you'd be submitting something not previously viewed/judged.

I also think a fortnightly comp would keep things bubbling along (perhaps initially) Limit of 2 or 3 images per person, with a 3rd week for voting.

I'm sure I'll think of more things...I'll revisit and post them when they hit.

Great idea Matt.

[shootem]

HiYa Matt.... Super idea here.
I LOVE the idea of no ratings - just comments. Too bad the pics can't be entered anonymously as you mentioned..... I wouldn't even mind having our fearless leaders pick the winners.... But they no doubt have enough on their plate....
I think the basic format you have is a good one. Possibly making the time period 3 weeks woiuld be helpful, as no entries should be accepted the last week - that would give each of us 2 weeks to get an entry ready.
Having assignments will be fun and challenging, and push us to explore new avenues.
I also think the photo must be taken withing the time period, not pulled from our archives of photos, and must be uploaded with the exif data.
1 image per person.
Voting 1st, 2nd and 3rd, I personally think is a good idea. You can have points assigned for each placing, that way, rather than just voting on one - you vote on three -- hypothetically one that I vote 3rd, could actually win, depending on all the other votes....
Example - 1st place = 5 points, 2nd = 3 points and 3rd = 1 point. Or something like that.
1st place only chooses the next theme, and then can't enter that next go round as eye-c mentioned....
Cheers,
Carolyn

[Aladyforty]

Hi Matt.
sounds a great idea, check out this link, I feel that it should be run in the same manner

http://www.stevesforums.com/forums/view_forum.php?id=85

regards
julie

PS your Private email box is full and can not recieve new mail

[wd8n]

I think you have a great idea here.
Annonomous entry, would certainly put a stop to favortism although certain people shoot a particular style in there photography and those peoples photos can almost be picked out each week even before we look at the member.
No ratings, fantastic idea. I love waterfalls and streams that are blurred from a time exposure so I give a rating of 10 but Joe over here thinks the waterfalls is to blurry so he rates the photo a 1. Who's right? Neither are right, they both have different taste so I'm all for the no rating on the challenge. Voting on more than just 1 photo is an excellent idea as well. There are to many members, and I'm just as guilty who naturally vote for there own photo in the finals each week which would cause a problem if all entries got to vote on any photo entered during the time frame, I think the majority would vote for there own, unless, there was a way that you couldn't vote for your own photos which might not be a bad thing to explore. As for Carolyn's idea on the exif information being intact, I crop nearly 105% of all my raw images and I have yet to figure out how to keep the exif information intact when doing this. I would love to know how as the information is very valuable days down the road when you can't remember how or when it was taken, so for that idea only because I don't know how to keep it, I'd have to disagree, also I don't think all camera's show exif information such as the Sony Cybershot and some of the lesser expensive models of camera's yet I have to admit we've all seen some absolutely marvelous shots on potw taken with the Sony Cybershot. As for the first, second and third place winners. I too think one is enough and if that particular person wasn't interested in setting the theme for the next challenge then the theme should be picked by administration. All in all Matt, I think you've come up with a great idea and will be watching the posts here to see the valued opinions of others. Not everyone will agree just as not everyone agrees on the photos each week but were all entitled to our opinions and the opinions expressed above are just that, my opinions.

Mike WD8N

Matt

I think what you're suggesting is great and with all the ideas presented so far you have lots to consider.
A couple of things that I would like....... would be to somehow have everyone who enters......have to comment on the others....oh I know there will be those who say its too much work but I am sure it would be fairer to the newer members whose work tends to slide to the last page without a comment but with many people have viewed it My feeling is that if you look at it ...then say something. If you enter then you must realize that you have responsibility to the others.
I like Carolyn's idea idea of applying points to the final three based on your opinion, 1st =5 points, 2nd =3 points and 3 = 1 point. That idea will certainly have a leveling effect and remove any possibility of a tie
With regard to suggesting the next theme if you win....not sure that I would like that responsiblitiy, perhaps it would be more convenient if topics were presented and then a list formed so that you would know ahead of time.
I am sure that you will have lots to consider....good luck with your endeavour......
Ray

[SMcEvoy]

Super idea everyone.

We may not be able to disable ratings, but we could put something at the top that says 'no ratings required'. Then just the vote at the end is what counts.

I like the once a month suggestion of Pierre's. 3 weeks to shoot and one week to judge.

I also like Carolyn's suggestion of points for 1st, 2nd & 3rd. Perhaps a breakdown could be given at the end that said this picture got 10 - 1st's, 5 - 2nds and 3 - 3rds. Just for example.

I, for one, am really looking forward to this.

BTW - Mike - to get your EXIF data, it's a bit manual, but you can do the following:- open an Explore window and navigate to your original photo. Right-click on it and choose Properties. Go to the summary tab and click Advanced (if it's not already showing your EXIF details.) All your data is right there - except ISO in my case (seems to be my D50 as it was there for the Minolta). I then just copy it into a template I've got in a text file.

[northbeach]

Matt, I think this is a good idea and I'd like to see it replace the critique forum since that's what POTW seems to have turned into.

I think first, second and third place is a good idea (and rated on a scale) because it encourages people - if they're not first they get an honorable mention. Hmmm maybe that's what it should be - 1st and one or, at most, two honorable mentions? I think admin should pick the theme, but if the winner does then they can't enter.

Two weeks to shoot the shot (which must be shot for this subject and also not posted to other sites for comment until this competition if completed), one week to vote.

I don't think you can vote on your own work during the POTW contest (only if you make the final six), so if that can be done all the better.

Anonymity? Definitely. There are distinct styles in here but they usually go with very distinct subject matter. I'd love to see Bluesky's entry on toes:-) (just pulling your leg Bluesky).

I think it's tough to insist that if you post you must comment on every entry. It would make for very long comments to wade through. I think that saying if you post you must comment on at least three other entries would be fair and managable.

Exif data - I don't think so. We need to keep this playing field as level as it can be, because many people have superior equipment and more sophisticated digital darkroom capabilities. I hear people talk about stuff they do with tools I don't have and can't ever afford.

And that brings me to the sticky subject of post processing and how much changing of image will be allowed. I think admin. needs to address that.

Finally (tongue in cheek) "very nice" or "looks sharp" with not another word don't qualilfy as valid comment.
And no one can say "IMHO". I never met a photographer yet who had a "humble" opinion. And it reminds me of Uriah Heep.

Good job, Matt.

Sheila.

[shootem]

I'm going with Sheila on the not having to "comment on every picture" ... I'm in the mountains now, no high speed internet (unless I visit a friend that has it - and I usually don't spend that time commenting on photos....) To comment on even 1/2 the entries would take time that I just don't have.
To me, that would be unreasonable.
Sheila, about the IMHO comment - that's exactly why I usually put IMNSHO LOLOL

Carolyn

[Matt_C]

for all the responses and I'm so glad you all like the basic idea. As I said it's not my idea but just something I've seen at other sites that I thought would be good to have here.

I think everyone so far agrees on the basic format but as Graham said with a bit of fine tuning. If this gos ahead then the rules and guide lines won't be set in stone. So we can see how things develope and we can make changes as and when we think they are required.

I've asked admin if it's possible to set up the voting so members are unable to vote on their own images. (Still waiting for an answer on that one but I'll post it as soon as I know) but if it's not possible then we'll just have to include it in the rules not to vote on your own image and rely on trust. Not ideal I know.

As far as awarding 1st, 2nd and 3rd and points awarded accordingly. Admin tells me this is not possible so it looks like we will be limited to one vote per member. I will ask if members can have more than one vote and depending on the answer we can consider it as an option.

With timescales we can be flexible on this one. I think if we start off with three weeks (2 for entries and 1 for voting). If the general feeling is after the first few challenges that this is not enough then we can increase it.

I share your frustration Ray on comments but I think all we can do is ecourage members as much as possible to get involved and don't feel intimidated about giving feedback. Remember also that unlike POTW each challenge will run over a number of weeks so there will be more time for pictures to get the feedback they need. I like Sheilas idea as well about if you enter then you must comment on at least three other photos. Hard to enforce but we can at least include it in the rules along with the "No ratings required"

Still undecided on who should pick the next theme. (Admin or the last winner) I like the idea of the last winner picking the theme but agree they shouldn't be able to enter in that challenge. I noticed on the site Julie linked to that they have a challenge forum with a few stickys, one of which is for making suggestions for future challenge topics. I'm sure we can have the same here so if anyones stuck for choosing the next theme then they can pick from one of the suggestions. They could even just start a new thread saying "HELP ME!" I'm sure we will all chip in with suggestions. In the mean time I'll ask admin how they feel about picking each topic.

Great suggestion about the picture should be taken within dates of the challenge. After thinking about it I think this is a must. A few of you suggested one entry per member so we can include that one in the rules. Another one we can change later if we feel we want more.

At the moment we won't be able to have anomynous entries as the only way it could be done would have a serious effect on security of the site, but it may be possible in the future.

I'll run all this by admin and confirm a few things but I think we are almost there. Still open to suggestions if anyone has any more ideas.

Oh and Sheila. To think all this time I thought IMHO stood for "In my honest opinion" Learn something new everyday. lol

Again thanks everyone for your thoughts. Much appreciated

Matt

[northbeach]

Matt, that you thought the h stood for honest says a lot about what a splendid lad you are:-)

Heck, maybe I'm wrong! (about what h stands for that is, not whether you're a splendid fellow or not)

Sheila

[bytethis]

G'day all.

This is coming along nicely...good stuff...

Several things I've thought about.

Technically we're not 'official' photo competition judges - or at least I'm confident that no contributing member at Byte is involved in judging. I'd be unhappy if this were the case. Therefore, we perhaps don't have the skills/requirements/judging experience to authorise us to judge others work. So how can it be fair on a member and their image(s), if we influence voting? This is the problem I have with the current POTW comp. I love to comment on others work as I see it...it's my own perspective - sure I have 21 years of taking photos behind me, using no less than 10 different types of camera, both film and digital. I reckon I know my way around a camera, but still have a long way to go...so tho I'm quite capable of contructively critiquing an image, and respected as such, am I eligible to vote with an influence on who wins a comp? Perhaps not.

So I still question our involvement with and the ability to vote.

My suggestion? If possible, have the field now known as 'Rating' be made a 'Member's rating' which would reflect it's only our view (not the final judges). If the current format must be continued, perhaps our scores should contribute to a final 5 or 10 images from which the judges select their winner(s). That too could also shape the way the POTW is scored. I firmly believe mambers should NOT be voting on the final 6 or whatever in ANY of the comps...otherwise why have judges? This would also eliminate us voting for ourselves AND those who 'shape' the voting for someone they like or against someone they don't...

However, not to put a dampener on any of this, but what if a Byte judge likes an image that the members don't?

Secondly, I also think that a good idea would be for admin to have a few 'guest' judges rotate from time to time - whether they be known professionals or admired senior members here. Perhaps at some point, some respected members (those with obvious wins/member longevity/member respect/comments posted etc) be elevated to judging or guest judging status to award their loyalty to the site.

Thirdly, let's get to know our judge(s)...I think it's important to be advised of our images 'hits and misses' I'd love to see an 'expert's' viewpoint on a) What was good about an image (not always neccesarily the wininning pics - maybe a judges selection where a judge picks 5 images that were outstanding) b) Where the judge thought an image lost points, and therefore what could be improved about that image - this could lead on to a modification of the assignment and critique section being absorbed into the new Challenge section, where an image that captured a judges eye, could possibly be reshot with correction for another competition (maybe POTW) so that the photographer (and us) can see his/her improvement and build on their photographic skills.

After all, sure this is a sharing site, but it's also very much a learning tool. Members (and their images) and in particular new members, are exposed to a very subjective environment, where there's perhaps professionals, amatuers and obviously those new to digital or in fact, any photography, therefore it's quite intimidating. So we should take advantage of the fostering environment we have here and help those that need it. By having appointed judges provide viewable feedback to these images (rather than just have our own perhaps 'polluted (sic)' opinions) will certainly help newbies and old guys like me to take better pictures, and ultimately sell more images and win more notoriety - that's why I photograph. It will certainly lend itself to providing the site more credibility and the judge(s) themselves the same. Makes the judges accountable also.

If admin drop the critique and assignment sections, this would certainly free them up from having to manage them and allow them to concentrate on the POTW (and its troubled scoring) and Challenge sections.

Just in case you're now confused, I'm ALL for this improvement...

I realise it's a free site, and we should be grateful for what's been achieved so far, it's bloody good. But being such a subjective art form, lends itself to emotions and comment running hot (as it should be!) so therefore things that happen at the site that affect what what we shoot or how we shoot should be carefully considered.

Ok you can all go and have a coffee now

[varun]

I just saw this thread, I think it's a great idea!

About the judging, I like Graham's idea of having guest judges who are members here at Bytephoto. And if the judges could tell us what they liked and what they didn't, that'd be extremely helpful. Many times, some of the images that make it to the POTW finals are not the ones that I thought were the week's best. Maybe it's because I've only been taking pics for little over a year... what do I know? Anyway it'll be nice to see their viewpoint on why they thought those images are so good, especially the winning pic.

Can't wait for this to start!

[northbeach]

Another site I belong to uses members to judge but that member has had to have had twenty wins in the photo of the day part of their contests. However, that site has their contests broken down into categories.

I think Varun has a good point - some people clearly have taste that lean to one type of image over another and that being so, perhaps the idea of categories should be considered for this challenge.

Guest judges is a good idea. We have people on this site making judgement calls based on very little except "I know what I like".